Q1
Murakoze cyane your Excellency, My name is Ben Kirui from Citizen TV Kenya, and I have two questions for you. The first one is to what extent is the international community culpable for its lack of intervention during Rwanda’s darkest hour, especially given the catastrophic failure to prevent the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi? My second question is, given that some perpetrators of the horrific acts during the genocide against the Tutsi remain unpunished, can victims and survivors maintain hope for achieving justice? That’s it, murakoze.
A/ President Kagame
The two questions really, which speak directly to the problems we had in 1994. But of course, we each have a history that go back decades still I’ll confine myself to these questions because both of them have been answered in many ways in the past, many times, and for Rwanda of we have, I think, made progress, and left some of the underlying issues to these questions where behind us, we whether the international community was responsible to what extent and so on and so forth.
Well, they have been responsible, to what extent do you kind of said to a great extent, but that’s it for us, we learn the lessons of how to manage ourselves and our affairs and stop being a part of the harm we do or did to ourselves because the international community, we will do things that are not correct against you or will do harm to you.
That’s okay, but let it be their own choice without having to be enticed by your own mistakes. So, we tend to look more on our side, what is it that put us in this kind of a situation in the first place, where the international community may have added to the problem, or they were part of the origin of the problem, but if we didn’t, if we did the things if we were right ourselves and didn’t give grounds to this international community, maybe they wouldn’t be blamed or pointed to or having our fingers pointed at them. So, and for the people who are all over the place, who committed or took part in the genocide, they are there, we have interacted with those people, that host them have never done it for many years. Some efforts have succeeded, most of them have not, But those people and whatever is happening should not should not to stop our lives running the way our lives should run.
So really that that is all, this mainly comes up when questions like you have raised the come up from other people, but they don’t occupy us on daily basis thinking about them.
Q2
Thank you very much, Your Excellency. My name is Edmund Kagire I work for Kigali Today. Mr. President, what is your message to the people who continue to be vague and unambiguous about who the victims were in Rwanda? A good example is the message by Secretary Blinken. He talks about remembering Hutus, Twas and, you know, all those three tribes.
And in your discussion with President Clinton, did you touch this issue, considering that the U.S. is among the countries who can’t name it properly? Thank you, Mr. President.
A/ President Kagame
We had broader discussions with former President Bill Clinton and his delegation. United States sent a delegation to be with us on this 30th Kwibuka and they decided to designate Honourable Bill Clinton to lead the delegation. So we had broad, broad discussions over our bilateral relations and the status of that.
That one was an element of discussion, but among many other more important things. For me, that that concern was answered long ago by making our position clear. Not so long ago, maybe 2015 or something, or 14. We get messages from all over the world joining us in the commemoration and that time we received a message that talked about on one hand, Kwibuka and sympathizing with us and so on and so forth, which was correct.
And then another part was all kinds of things about democracy, human rights, freedoms, everything that we are thought not to have at all in our country. So, our country actually wrote a letter back to the U.S., I’m the one who authored that, and what I asked them, what i told them is two folds, one, I told them that United States or any government of any country have the freedom to tell us whatever they want to tell us whether we are happy about it or not, that’s no problem. And we are always going to absorb whatever is brought our way.
But I also told the more important thing was the second point for me was, but on this commemoration day, we are grateful when you commemorate with us. But for these other points you are trying to make to us, we have one ask that is important to us; in the letter we told him, feel free to commemorate with us if you want, and feel free also to tell us whatever you don’t like about us, but our ask is one when it is the day of commemoration, which is 7th of April, can you be kind enough to commemorate with us and stop there?
And there are 365 days in year, give us this that day of 7th of April, xommemorate with us and then you can have the rest, 364 days, blaming us every day for everything you don’t like about us. Just separate these two things. Commemorate with us for one day, blame us for the rest of the days of the year. I thought it was a fair deal and a fair ask.
So for me, that problem was solved that day, these others that come after, and come in the future, I have no problem.
Q3
Good Morning Your Excellency. My name is Laith from Al Jazeera. Earlier in an interview, Your Excellency described some politics in the region be primitive based on ethnics.
I am in Rwanda, only since a few weeks and I noticed that the level of the stability in the country. And so my question is, how does Rwanda manage political strategy with the neighbouring to maintain the achievements since 1994? Thank you.
A/ President Kagame
Thank you. We do what we can, what is possible, and we don’t do it alone. We try and do it with those countries, neighbouring countries and beyond, but there are priorities. Those are the ones we stick to.
First is to address our internal issues that either relate to our history or even to our geography and do the best we can, humanly can, to create a stable country, to have our citizens get the best they can give themselves or working together, we can offer each other and security, socio economic development, it is always adding to bring the country back together in the form of unifying the people even in their differences, still look at each other as belonging to the same country towards which you can contribute the best you can individually and collectively. That’s the foundation.
Of course, there is no country that is going to be an island. None. No country in the world decides to say I would be on my own, I live alone. The rest can go hang. So we try to find common interest and understanding between us, and beginning with the neighbours and beyond, well beyond, that we try as well.
And in this we try to make sure that other partners, or other people feel comfortable with us, or what they get with us when they have, you know, without really interfering in their own business.
But it is in the same way that we also feel that partners should be doing with us what is in line with interests, policy and understanding of who we want to be, how we want to get there and so on and so forth.
There is ownership of what we want to do, much as we work with others and so we try that as much as possible. But of course, in the end, there will be problems. Where the problems are originating from us, we own up and ask people what do they think those problems are, we try to address them.
When the problems are coming from those others, we have to relate with, we also very clearly let them know what we think those problems are that we are being affected by and if they can change, then it improves our relationship.
So we have really done a lot at least, made progress, invested a lot in trying to resolve our internal issues. We still have a lot, the country needs to do more, do better all the time, but we have made good progress. So, what we have in the region currently and which maybe refers to part of what you said about primitive politics. I said that relating to what situation you have in our region where and what we had in Rwanda ourselves back in the years which we have overcome and continue to make sure that we keep moving forward, is politics that seeks to divide the people either of a country or a region.
In fact, based on ethnic or religious or other reasons, you cannot govern effectively and stably, you can’t have stability when you divide people, when you discriminate people, I could not find a better word to run a society or a government on the basis of division of tribes or ethnic groups, this and in our case, having gone to the extreme even here in 94, as you remember, I could not find a better word other than being primitive.
How do you divide people? How do you practice sectarianism or racism. Where do we see it in history that it has served well in a society? That’s what I was referring to, because we have a lot of it in the region, especially in the recent days, as we have seen. So, I was not only explaining that so that people may give it consideration to avoid very huge and costly problems that are born out of it.
Q4
Sophie Mokoena from the South African Broadcasting Corporation. Mr. President, Yesterday, we spoke to President Cyril Ramaphosa said you had a marathon meeting on Saturday night, You also have the former South African president in the country who joined yesterday. Were you able to raise issues that we spoke about on Thursday in relation to Rwanda’s relationship with South Africa, particularly the issue of the DRC.
Thank you so much.
A/President Kagame
We could not have spent hours, the president of South Africa and I, meeting and definitely not talk about that, it featured. And I think we had a very good discussion, very good understanding of the situation and maybe the best ways we can work together to resolve that. I was satisfied.
So, and it seems your interview also helped the discussion we had and the questions you asked maybe informed all of us and prepared us for that discussion so we had, even the reference point.
So, we definitely did discuss that, and I am satisfied, I hope the President himself is satisfied that we can make good progress on a number of fronts to resolve the issues.
Q5
Thank you, President, My name is Susumu Imaizumi working for Japanese newspaper Asahi. So with regard to the presence of the Asian countries, including Japan, maybe especially Japan. So, what kind of relationship would you like to build in the future with the Asian countries?
A/ President Kagame
We actually have a very good relationship with Asian countries and a relationship that is very productive, that is very meaningful to our development as a country, and I hope meaningful to those countries as well, from our side. So, we do, the good thing is, it’s actually a healthier relationship with those Asian countries, they don’t come with, well, some of them have started learning to do that. But largely, it’s respectful, it’s very beneficial, they don’t come with all kinds of demands that we must address like we have in some other types of relationships. So, it’s there, we want it to grow and it’s healthy.
Q6
Good morning, Your Excellency and thank you. I’m Margaux Solinas from the French media ITEM and I had two questions for you. First, the French presidency leaked last Thursday a piece of the speech of Emmanuel Macron. He was supposed to pronounce yesterday. But the video that was actually released elsewhere and the speech didn’t match with what was announced.
Plus, Emmanuel Macron was supposed to come and finally he canceled. I want to know if whether there has been a problem because of the French position doesn’t sound like really clear at the moment. And my second question is about the fact that Rwandese soldiers have been sent to Mozambique in 2021 in the aim to help and strengthen Mozambican and Rwandan relationship. But how did it also strengthen the relationship between Rwanda and France at the moment?
A/President Kagame
As far as I’m concerned, our relationship between Rwanda and France is good and has been good in the recent days. Of course, behind that there is this long history of problems relating to what happened in our country in the last 30 years.
So, my feeling up to now is we’ve made progress, but there are still people maybe in the political and other structures of France that held back by what happened in history.
They are still living politically in the past. We can only be making progress on the basis of people who want to look forward and we move forward together. So, I don’t know the proportions with this, or with that I don’t know, but to make the judgment, I think the people of France, reasonable people, and we can work together. Sometimes the politicians are the ones are at issue.
So I heard about that, the contradictions in the statements or this or watering down this. But that’s all about it. I heard that happened. But for me, I’m focused on the good things that can happen if we let well and make progress, these small issues I think will be there, even if you’re talking about the Head of State having done this and that.
But still, that’s not for me to dwell on and talk about. Maybe when you get an opportunity and speak to him, when you get back, you may ask him, he may give you a better answer than I am capable of giving you. But for us, we are still on the side of wanting to continue making progress, irrespective of the bad history we have had.
For Mozambique, we got involved in Mozambique with the understanding and the invitation of our brothers and sisters in Mozambique, and we’ve been there doing what we can and working with the Mozambicans to rein in the insecurity that was there for a couple of years.
And I think good progress has been made also, how the French come into this, as you asked, may be is related to what you might be having in mind because they have investments there, like other countries have.
In fact, there are many countries that have these investments, heavy investments in Mozambique, either these countries working together through their companies or different ways whether it is France, it is United States, it is India, it is Japan, its’s Korea. There are many who are there, working there. So naturally, the investments have to be made in a stable environment and since we are, contributing to the stability of the area where these countries are making investment, we have discussions, we talk to each other.I n our contribution and their investments there, we have good discussions and understanding of how we can continue to stabilize that area, that’s the main thing they can say France linking through Mozambique.
Q7
Good morning, You Excellency. My name is François Dupaquier From Afrikararabia. If you watch at the French speaking press in recent days, you see a lot of articles in favor of Rwanda. Anyhow, there is often an incidence, a headline, that asks the question, “But who is Kagame really? The propaganda of your enemies, particularly in Congo, describes you as a cruel and bloodthirsty tyrant. Do you try to change this image? For example, in most of your official photographs, you look severe and distant. This can contribute to fueling controversy. Why don’t you wear a slight smile like all your fellow presidents around the world? Do you ultimately like or dislike being feared, sometimes hated in the Western world. Thank you.
A/President Kagame
Good. I think you have summarized well the questions that have been the there but not asked directly. But for the smile. I think I have to borrow either some talent or actually directly the smile from some people. But the fact that it is, the smile is lacking on me is not to my making. Maybe it happenes accidentally.
But very interesting way of putting your question. I’ll try to answer it this way, starting with who is me, who is the person? Me, is the person you see. I’m not hiding anything. What you see in me is what I am. If you are just going by the looks or by whatever or what, what I do more, I think, is what may describe me than my physical looks. So, I wanted to say, what you see is what you get with me.
And in most cases in words or in deeds, they relate, my deeds and my words tend to relate. My looks may be different from that, may be different from my deeds and how I think. But in any case, isn’t the description of the looks also subjective? There are people who see me through the looks. as a terrible person. There may be others who say , after all, there is nothing bad looking like that. So it’s subjective, but to the point you are making, about tyrant, orcruel…. You see, you can’t be bad to that extent, cruel or a tyrant or bloodthirsty, whatever. And hide it. It’ difficult, even if you try to hide it, there is a moment it betrays you. And that also once it has came out or once it is not there, you register the feeling, the description, from people who have to deal with you.
If I was some of the things people have said about me or described me as, the judgment is out there, either for the people of this country or other people somewhere else and it wouldn’t just be confined to the press because the press is full of individuals. But these individuals don’t add up to a population that is as big as Rwanda’s, even if Rwanda is very small. These are just individuals. Five in France, ten in America, three in China, two in Belgium, and so on and so forth.
If you add all of them up, and they are even all negative and saying things about me, surely, these can’t be the people that are right and the rest wrong. But, they only take advantage of the platform they have, they are able to command some voice that they put out there for people to…. even people who don’t know what you are talking.
There are many people who even don’t know about Kagame, and get to know him by what a journalists has said or what one in the press has said, and in many cases in my experience, some of them have started by hearing what the journalist said and they ended up saying, “But we have been told lies”, when they come to know this through other means, either by direct contact or visit or whatever, interaction with other people who know this person that has been talked about.
They may say, “This person told us lies and consistently over many years has been telling us lies. What we saw, what we heard, whether it is this city, whether it is a person, whether it is this.” They say, “No, but what we are being told is completely different from what we have seen or experienced.”
And of course, there is particularity with the western press. The western press, I mean, you will find out. There are things that were said about this country 30 years ago, 25 years ago, that are being repeated now, which means, according to them, nothing has changed. They talk about Rwanda, very poor population. We are poor. We are not where the developed countries are for sure. But this poverty, the way it was in 1995, in 2000, is not the way it is in 2024. But somebody will keep writing in the press like what we have today is the same thing as we had 25 years ago. And keep just rubbing it in. You know, even the Kagame and his looks, and so on.
I have been trying in recent days, I’ve been trying. I have been trying with a smile. Maybe it’s not a good smile, but I have been trying. So, the Kagame you saw in 94, in 95, 2000 anyway, there was no smile. There was nothing to smile about.
So I didn’t smile. But now with some progress. I can afford some smile, once in a while. So if somebody thinks, like that, you know, I have even grown gray hair. Last time my hair was black, now it is gray, it is actually disappearing, I may be bald. If you think the Kagame you saw 20 years ago is the same, no. It is a misrepresentation.
But even then, that time I looked different and the press may not have liked the way I look like, but the situation that time maybe looked like that itself. So I can’t to be in a heap of dirt, and then I am smiling. That’s a lie.
I would be a liar. I would be pretending, I would ctually, be having some problems with me, to pretend that everything is okay around me when everything is bad.
So finally, the Kagame you see, or there, or you like or you don’t like, is going to be there anyway. I don’t need anybody to like me or to hate me, to live my life. I live my life whether you like me or you don’t like me, and I will have my views, I’ll express them, I’ll do things. So I owe my living to not a single individual or country, even if powerful ones. No, we are all human beings created, sometimes they say by God. I don’t know, maybe. So for somebody to have powers over me, that one I can tell you it is not possible.
Even the most powerful didn’t create me. Who created them, first of all? And we are all here just temporarily. If we are lucky, we live up to 100 years. Those are the luckiest, you know. So, the one who is saying all that has also his time and he’ll go like all of us, everyone has their day.
So that’s why I can’t accept that anyone has powers over somebody else, to the point of dictating. Even the most powerful don’t have power over us how we live, how we do.
So, Kagame has been shaped by that philosophy, that understanding that, well, I’ll try like any human being and do my best, do what I can do, do what I have to do. I may have flaws, make mistakes, own up and do good things and benefit others.
So, I am that person. Tell those people that actually to know me is not complicated. It’s straightforward, it’s me. And then other things we can discuss on the side.
But that was a very powerful question.
Q8
Thank you, Your Excellency, I am Ammu Kannampilly from AFP. My question is about the March 23 movement in eastern DRC. Your government has previously denied backing the movement. Does that denial still stand a year and a half later? And what is the current relationship between Rwanda’s government and the M23? Thank you.
A/President Kagame
Well, those who accuse us, I would ask them why they actually don’t support the M23 themselves. Including AFP, as a journalist, why don’t you support the M23? Or why is the question, do you support M23 or you don’t support M23? First of all, what is the M23?
M23 is an organization born in and out of Congo. That’s number one. Number two, these are Congolese. And you’ll hear even Congo admit it.
Now, why do they exist? Why are they fighting? Why do they have arms is another question. It is also a simple question. They exist because they have been denied their rights as citizens of that country. They are called Tutsis of Rwanda.
Fine, but then you need to be educated also a little bit about history. We have Rwandan communities in Congo who are Congolese, and by the way, these are not just Tutsis, it is the same social structure of our country that is also there in the Congo. Like, in fact, you have other neighbouring countries where they are, but they are citizens of those countries.
We have 100,000 people originating from this community, 100,000 who have been living here in Rwanda in refugee camps for the last two decades. Why? Because they are being uprooted from their ancestral homes, persecuted, and sent across, in fact, there are more in Uganda. There is 100,000 here, there are hundreds of thousands there in Uganda, more numbers.
So the M23 is born out of that situation. That’s why I asked the question, I said, well, why wouldn’t anybody else, why would we, why are we being accused as Rwanda of supporting M23? And I’m saying even those who accuse us actually should accuse them of not supporting M23 because it is as if they agree with the injustice that is being done to this community. Otherwise, if you didn’t agree with that injustice, you would be actually raising questions.
Why? Why are these people of M23 being treated like this? Why are we having 100,000 refugees here in Rwanda? That’s where you would start from, not start from asking Rwanda, are you supporting M23 or not? Are you still denying? Because you are asking the wrong question. The issue is not whether anybody supports M23 or not. The issue is what is actually the problem of M23? That’s the question you should have asked in fact. What is the problem? What is this thing called M23? Are they human beings, are they Rwandans, are they Congolese? Why? Why do they exist? Why do they even have arms and are fighting in their own country?
This is the right question that I should be asked. So whether Rwanda supports or is associated in any way is actually immaterial, it is irrelevant to the question or even you if you want to educate yourself or educate the public, the question should have been simple. Ask me, by the way, what do you understand the M23 to be? What is it? It’s a fair question. That’s the one I would wish to be associated with, rather than whether I support or not support.
Q9
Thank you very much, Your Excellency, Dupaquier talked about the image. I’ve been traveling through the continent and the majority of the youth, I think, want you to remain the way you are, because Rwanda means for them hope, but more than that, a new school of political thought, a new school of doing things, a new school of making politics and transforming our society for the best, for peace, stability, and economic progress. For the past 30 years, you have succeeded to build a modern state, offering to Rwandan people a safe space to build their own lives and achieve their personal dreams. How do you see Rwanda for the 30 other coming years?
A/President Kagame
Well, we keep making progress and be where others are that they have even taken for granted, and when you see developed countries, why can’t Rwanda or Africa develop to that extent or beyond? What is lacking?
What you have to deal with is the right politics in place, management of society, and enabling society to do what they need or have to do to take them to a much higher level in terms of development than where they are.
So really, that is the aspiration for all of us, even as leaders, and I’m sure individual Rwandans, everyone wants to see development, they want to see us because we are human beings, human beings we can’t have this kind, allow this disparity and some have been designated to remain backward, poor, undeveloped, and yet we are sitting on immense resources that actually other people who are developed are coming to help themselves with and taking away. And for us, we are there watching and not doing anything about it.
So, the Rwanda of the next 30 years should be maybe three, four, five times better than what you see now. Thirty years from our graves to being here, I think another 30 years, we are not coming from the graves, this time we are coming from some level of progress that we have made.
Unfortunately, I couldn’t take all the questions, but I’m happy to meet you at another time. Thank you. Have a good day.